As the world changes, the role of property and casualty (P&C) actuaries is changing too, from the emerging risks they study—including climate change and self-driving cars—to the technologies they employ to devise solutions. On this episode of Critical Point, Milliman recruiter Liz Shickles speaks with two P&C actuarial consultants, Zora Law from Milliman and Dane Grand-Maison from partner firm Eckler, about their own career journeys, the influence of AI (hint: it won’t ever replace learning), and advice for students and other professionals who want to enter the field.
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Liz Shickles: Hello and welcome to Critical Point, brought to you by Milliman. I'm Liz Schickles, senior talent acquisition consultant based in our Milwaukee office, and I'll be your host today.
On this episode of Critical Point, we're going to talk about career paths for property and casualty actuaries. The insurance and consulting industries are changing, especially with the rising importance of AI and climate change, and that means actuarial careers are changing, too. So today we're going to talk about the new skill sets that actuaries need. We're going to make a plug for why you smart young listeners out there should join the industry. And we'll discuss where the profession might go from here.
With me to dig into all this are two P&C actuarial consultants. First, from Eckler, which is Milliman's partner firm in Canada, we have Dane Grand-Maison, principal based in Toronto. Welcome, Dane.
Dane Grand-Maison: Thanks for having me, Liz.
Liz Shickles: And from Milliman, we have Zora Law, an actuary based in Los Angeles.
Zora Law: Hi!
Liz Shickles: Thank you both for joining me today. Let's jump right in.
What does a P&C actuary do?
Liz Shickles: I think we could start with some basics. I'm hoping we have some bright young students listening who might be curious about pursuing this profession, but also other folks working in disciplines who might be interested in learning more about P&C specifically. So, what does a P&C actuary do, and why would you encourage someone to go into this line of work?
Zora, do you want to go first?
Zora Law: Sure. I am a P&C actuary myself, so I can answer this question. I think the first thing that attracts me the most is the opportunity that is there.
P&C insurance actually covers everything that we do in our daily lives, so whether we have a car, whether we have a home, we need insurance, as well as for business, they need workers' compensation, general liability, if they're commercial auto as well. But even things like cyber insurance or satellite insurance, so basically everything in our whole life needs an insurance policy from a P&C discipline.
And that's a lot of opportunity there. But also, on top of that, as an actuary, our role is written into the regulations. So a lot of us are reserving actuaries. We have to do a statement of actuarial opinion every year, which is part of the financial statement for an insurance company.
And also, we're working on real-life problems, so everything from what we were talking about in the insurance industry, as well as helping companies and corporations to plan for the future. So those are exciting things that we're working on.
Liz Shickles: Great. Thanks, Zora. And Dane, I'm curious how you might describe the profession.
Dane Grand-Maison: Yeah, thanks. I think Zora almost covered everything. Maybe I'll go a different route a little bit here.
You can tell from my accent, I'm a French-Canadian, so my first language is French. And when I bring my wife to Quebec, she doesn't understand anything, she doesn't speak French. So she will listen to people and try to guess what people say, and most of the time she'll be okay. But once I step in and translate things for her, she'll say, okay, now it makes sense, and then now she understands why we do things.
Actuaries: The risk translators of the wider business world
Dane Grand-Maison: I think actuaries are similar to that. We're kind of like the translators of risk or uncertainty to business people. So, for example, during COVID we always heard that people drive less, there's less frequency, there's less accidents, but what does that mean? So, actuaries, what do we do? We try to translate that. So we try to use data and say, okay, the frequency, the number of accidents has been reduced by X amount, and that means that you can get X more premium, or more losses, and things like that. Or when we talk about higher inflation recently, what does that mean? Like, what's the percentage? What is normal? What is high? And how does it translate on my investment, and things like that?
So that's how I see it, in a sense of, obviously, we have all the technical skills and things like that. But at the end of the day, we're really translators. We're trying to translate what the data means to business people.
Liz Shickles: That's great. I actually feel like we have that in common, Dane, because I feel like as a recruiter, I'm translating someone's experience and skills into the job that we're considering for. So I definitely want to dig more into that, what that looks like for P&C hiring specifically, but I love that analogy.
Actuarial consulting offers a variety of career paths and projects
Liz Shickles: I'd love to hear you each describe your individual career paths, and maybe some of the projects that you've worked on recently as a P&C actuary.
Zora Law: Sure, I can start first. I started as an actuarial trainee back in Dublin, in Ireland, in 2004, which is quite a long time ago. I was working in Dublin for six years before moving to the U.S. in 2010.
I was qualified as a U.K. actuary, studying for the U.K. exam, but luckily some countries have mutual recognition, so I managed to come over and become a qualified U.S. actuary through mutual recognition as an FCAS.
I have worked for large and small insurance companies, a big four consulting firm, and before joining Milliman, I was working at DoorDash, a tech company.
All this kind of gave me a very diverse background, and this is something that I continue within Milliman. So, if you ask me what projects I've been working on recently, one day I'll be working on a reserving analysis for homeowners insurance after catastrophe. Another day, I'll be working for a hospital, which they have a large self-insurance pricing study to be done. And then another day, I'll be looking at industry insight into commercial auto or even cyber insurance. So, it's very diverse, very interesting.
Liz Shickles: Fantastic. It sounds like you've grabbed hold of a lot of different opportunities so far in your career.
Zora Law: Yeah, definitely.
Liz Shickles: Dane, how about you?
Dane Grand-Maison: Yeah, I think I have a similar background as Zora, but obviously I didn't graduate from the U.K. I studied in Quebec, in Canada, so I became a qualified actuary a few years after I graduated. But I really worked in an insurance company to start with, and that was great in a sense, because that allowed me to work on different projects. I've done reserving and rate making, and also seeing it from different perspectives as well.
And I got lucky as well, because that company was based in the U.K., so for several years, I've done the other way from Zora. So, I was a North American actuary that went to the U.K. over there. One thing that I notice is, the problems that we have, or the risks that we have in Canada or the U.S. are very similar in the U.K., so the actuaries think very similarly, even though it's different regulations and different environments. We have the same problems. So I think that was eye-opening to me, because I always thought, like, the U.K. was totally different from Canada.
So when I came back, one of the things I also wanted to do is to see it from the business side. So I've done an MBA, and when I graduated from the MBA, I worked in investment banking, so I really saw the insurance from the business side. So I really saw this from a different perspective, and after a few years, I decided to come back in actuarial.
And one of the things in consulting is every day you're kind of working on a different client or a different project. So, once you're in the company, you might only do, like, maybe some pricing and that's what you do and you become an expert on that specific topic, but as a consultant, you do different projects, and I just find it pretty interesting.
Liz Shickles: Great. I agree that different experiences and perspectives can really benefit you as an actuarial consultant because of all the different clients that you'll work with and the ways in which those experiences and skill sets can kind of complement one another.
How has the actuarial profession changed in 15 years?
Liz Shickles: Do you feel like there are ways in which the profession or the skills that you need have significantly changed, even since you each began your actuarial careers?
Zora Law: Yeah, I think so. I remember when I was studying back in 2008 for the exams. The financial crisis was coming in, so afterwards we were all talking about enterprise risk management (ERM), which was such a big topic at that time. Gradually, it's not as common nowadays to talk about ERM, even though it's still very important in the insurance world, as well as the financial world.
The focus seems to have shifted to technology. I remember when I started, it was all about Excel and things were so basic and, you know, macro within the Excel. Those were the old days. But nowadays, you know, if you ask, nobody really uses VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) as often as they used to. But now they use new programming skills like R and Python. We talk about big data, we talk about predictive modeling, and nowadays we even talk about LLM, which is large language models, as well as machine learning and AI (artificial intelligence) as well.
Liz Shickles: Great. Dane, any other changes you feel like you've witnessed or experienced?
Dane Grand-Maison: Yeah, yeah, one thing at Eckler that is pretty interesting is we have one specific meeting room. And in that meeting room, there's a big frame, and when you get to the frame a bit closer, you can see there's an old sheet of paper, like a huge sheet of paper, with something written on it. And when you look at it a bit more carefully, you can realize it's actuarial calculations.
And that was done by someone, I'm not sure exactly the date, but it's around the 1960s or 1970s. So you can see at that time, from what I understand, the only thing they had was a big calculator, and apparently that will cost about $5,000 in today's dollar value, I think. But that's how they do. So their tools were that big calculator and a piece of paper.
So that was before my time. But that kind of shows you how the actuarial profession has been changing quite a bit over the last 50 and 60 years.
From Excel to AI: An actuary’s evolving skills and tools
Dane Grand-Maison: When I started, just like Zora, at that time everybody was using Excel. Like, I even used Excel to select the name of my daughter, I guess, so it was a bit nerdy when you think about that.
But one thing that was never changing is what I told you at the beginning: We're translating the risk and uncertainty to people. So the people that were doing the paper that I told you in our meeting room, they were trying to communicate that risk to business people. And now that I'm using Excel and all those models, that's what I'm trying to do with more sophisticated or better tools. And that will be the same as well right now, the tools that Zora mentioned. The tools have been evolving, but we're trying to do the same thing that what the actuary was doing 50 years ago.
Zora Law: Yeah, and just to add, we kind of expanded our view as well. So, in the good old days, we probably hadn't talked about things like self-driving cars, or even, we knew about climate change, but not to such an extent. And things like that, they are everyday topics. We talk the new cars that are self-driving, we are talking about the new economy that we rely on the gig economy, as well as what are we going to do with all the catastrophe, which is part of climate change, and what's the mitigation or solution, or where insurance and actuaries can help to make the world better this way.
Liz Shickles: I think actuaries are leaning into predictive modeling and other types of everything that falls under the term of “AI” to try to do this work better. It feels like a huge undertaking, and that there's so much we don't even yet understand.
Advice for actuaries trying to keep pace with new technology
Liz Shickles: What advice would you give to someone who is in the actuarial profession and feels like they need to catch up or develop a totally new technical skill for their work, or to get the next job that they want to have? What would you say to advise them on that?
Zora Law: I would say, first of all, we actuaries, we're actually the first-generation data scientists. We came up with predictive modeling quite some time ago, before it was a thing, so we, as a profession, we already kind of had the basic skill set to use a lot of new technology and managing, kind of, machine learning and AI skills.
Not everybody is at the same level, but I would say we kind of use it differently. There will be consultants, there will be actuaries who are really good at using AI and be able to catch up with the programming and everything that goes behind it, and be able to make it the largest model or the best model that we can use to predict something. But on the other hand, there would be people who are less familiar with the programming, but they would be able to use AI to enhance their everyday work.
And I think that's the thing that we have been talking about. Actuaries are not going to be replaced by AI, but actuaries are going to be replaced with actuaries who use AI.
AI will enhance, not replace, the actuarial profession
Zora Law: And in a way, AI is not something that we can use it just to replace the profession, but think about it as an enhancement. If we use AI correctly, it will help us to be more efficient and be able to kind of think outside the box and be able to generate more ideas.
So those are areas I would suggest that people start thinking about it, not use it to replace your thinking but bring on your critical thinking hat, and say, okay, ask AI to critique your work, ask AI to brainstorm more ideas, ask AI to be the devil’s advocate, and kind of, you know, think about other points of view, so that you can use it and be able to be more open-minded in different ways.
Liz Shickles: Dane, what would you say?
Dane Grand-Maison: Yeah, on AI specifically, I think it's a very hot topic right now. There's a stat that I read about a few weeks ago that struck me. ChatGPT, they track how much data, or how much people are using ChatGPT day after day, and I guess, weeks after weeks, and in June, there was a big crash in ChatGPT, like, all the people were using it. One thing is, it looked kind of strange, why would people stop using it at that time?
But one thing is, it's because it's the end of university, so that shows that a lot of students have been using it recently, in the last year or two. So those are the people, the heavy users, that will know how to use it properly and things.
What I've seen in practice, there's a very wide variety of people using it in practice. I've seen people that have actually never opened it, so I had to show them that, okay, you need to put an email and sign up and things like that. That's how it works. And I've seen people that are very deep into it and that knows a lot.
But it doesn't really change too much by age. Like, I've seen people that graduated two, three years ago, and they still don't know how to use it too much. So I've seen that people that are graduating now, they're getting a new skill set that the people in practice right now are not having or they don't know yet.
I think that's good, and I think if I was helping a new graduate, I think it's probably to bring ideas to the industry. Obviously people might not always listen to you, but there are skills and things that the industry doesn't have right now that people can bring to the table. So, I think you should try to find a way to bring that and try to communicate to the people what AI can do, because we're all learning together. The thing is evolving quickly, so if we can get the skills and spread it out.
One of the things that is great about the actuarial profession is we're very big on learning. So there's all the continuing education and things like that, that all actuaries need to do. You don't see anyone that just stops learning the moment they graduate. They just keep learning, and people are interested. So if you graduate with some knowledge, people will listen to you, and then they might be interested as well. So I think that's probably the advice I would give to a new graduate.
Curiosity, communication, and other soft skills actuaries need
Liz Shickles: Good. I really do think that the actuarial profession embraces a variety of skills. The technical skills are undeniable, but there's so much more to it than that. You've already touched on a few of those points: the ability to communicate, to explain a complex idea, or defend your reasoning for the recommendation that you're giving and be able to talk to the data that's backing it up.
What are other adjectives that come to mind, or nouns, when you're thinking about the skills that are necessary today and in the future for actuaries?
Zora Law: Yeah, I will add on to what we have said. You know, we need to be learning all the time, so being curious and asking questions. You know, textbook or exam is one thing, you know, you finish them, you get qualified, but that's just the beginning, because the world is changing and our profession is changing and our work is changing, so we need to go with it so that we keep up to date with the latest technology, as well as understanding what the world needs and, you know, what the world’s problem is right now.
So we kind of need to do research on our own, whether learning from industry paper, whether listening to insurance company earning calls, or, you know, going to seminars that, you know, we can get to learn more new areas that you haven't touched before, and then keeping an eye and asking questions, and thinking outside the box, and being creative, and that will help us to come up with new solutions to problems that we have never seen before.
Liz Shickles: I think coming from that place of intellectual humility, to be ready to say, you know, I don't know, but I will find out, or I will find someone else who can weigh in on this, and we can solve the problem together. I see that happen quite a lot here at Milliman.
Zora Law: Yeah.
Liz Shickles: Dane, what do you think about the descriptors of a good future actuary?
Dane Grand-Maison: There's really two things, I think you mentioned about it already, Liz, communication is very important, and to be honest when I signed up to study actuarial science, I didn't think about communication very much. I was good at mathematics. Could solve a lot of equations. And I thought that's what a good actuary is.
And I realized when you start in business, like when you start to work in real life, yeah, obviously, it's helped to be good at solving equations, to code. This is kind of basic tools that you have. But if you cannot communicate your idea very well, even if you have the best of the best idea, nobody will implement it. So I realized over time, working on the communication, both when you speak to people in meetings, but also there's a lot of reports that actuaries need to do, so it's very rare that you will just update an Excel spreadsheet and send that. A lot of the time you might need to write a report for business people, so you might need to write something to a CEO. He won't open your spreadsheet. He will read your report. So if your report is written and he doesn't understand what it means, most likely it's going to the garbage. He won't even consider it. So those communication skills, to be able to merge the communication plus your technical skills, it's a big key.
The other thing I want to add is the teamwork. One of the things, like what happened maybe 50 years ago, companies will only have maybe one actuary, and that's, okay, if they had a question, they will send the question, okay, we'll ask the actuary there, and he will do some stuff. The thing now, where the world is a lot more specialized, so we need to be able, obviously, to communicate, but to work with one another. So it's not one person doing all the work. You need to be able to kind of talk to someone else and help other people as well, and try to understand, even though you cannot do the work of the other actuaries or the other person, to be able to understand what they can bring you and how you can help them as well, because we're all connected, in a sense. So, I think teamwork and communication is something that is often overlooked, but it's extremely important when you come in practice.
Zora Law: Yeah, and being a consultant working at Milliman, and this is the perfect setup, because we have lots of different consultants who are great experts in their area, so we can bounce off ideas, learn from each other, and bring them in to help clients that we have. Those are amazing opportunities.
Liz Shickles: I feel like a lot of what we're saying might not necessarily just be for the property and casualty industry. And that's a good thing.
Collaboration tips for actuaries working remotely
Liz Shickles: When it comes to communicating and teamwork, those things that are part of the magic of people working together, that becomes more difficult to do virtually, or even in a hybrid work environment. You have to figure someone's always going to have to join the meeting from someplace else, or maybe everybody's joining the meeting, each from their own desk, wherever that might be.
Is there anything that either of you has found to make that productive, either within your own team, or that you have seen work really well to make people feel like they are effectively communicating and collaborating?
Zora Law: Yeah, one thing I noticed since COVID, most of us are remote. So, you know, one person may be in Georgia, the other person may be in Chicago, and I'm in Los Angeles. The thing is, I guess we need to be more proactive, because it's more difficult to get to, not like, you know, kind of an office environment that you can just go over to their desk and, you know, ask questions. So I feel like nowadays we need to learn to be more proactive and ask questions. People are very nice and friendly, and they do want to help each other out, so don't be afraid, ask questions, there's no stupid question. And then also, sometimes it's easier just to say, oh, do you have a few minutes? Let's get on a Teams call and just, you know, talk about it live, rather than just typing a really, really long email.
The other thing I would say is, the team itself needs to create a culture that, you know, we want to get together. So, whether it's once a year or every half a year that we have a team gathering, that we fly everybody to one location, and then we have a training or team-building session together. If people are more local and close to each other we try to organize lunch or, you know, things that we can do together. Those are very important times that we kind of feel like, oh, we belong to the same team, and we want to work together so that we're producing good teamwork here.
Dane Grand-Maison: For me, one of the things when I started my career that I really liked is, especially during lunch time, when all the team was there, I would probably not talk at all, but I would listen to other people, I would listen to people that have been in the industry for 20, 30 years, and see what the issue they see, and things like that. So you're basically just kind of a small fly on the wall and trying to understand and grab the vocabulary and the knowledge from these people just by being there. And this is, I believe, one thing that is stolen from the new graduate now, because you will not go on the Teams call just to chat like this. Like, you wouldn't invite everybody on the call just for that. So if I need to talk to someone or just call one person and have that conversation. So the people, the small things that you were listening in the office, you're missing out on these things.
One thing that, for me, or for our team that works—we're a little bit different from Milliman; most of our teams are located in the same city—so we like to also have people come in the office once or twice a week. So we always try the best we can to have lunch together, so we can replicate those small conversations.
But the other things that I've been doing virtually, at least, is to have at least a weekly meeting for the whole team. So it can be, like, a workload meeting, or just a casual meeting, but having a kind of a recurring meeting for the whole team to chat, or to talk about their weekend a little bit. It seems a little bit unproductive, but it really helps bonding and feel like I was talking about, like a teamwork before, so if you kind of see your teammate and being able to talk to them, you feel a little bit more connected with people.
And the other thing is to, for the people that are reporting to me directly, I'm trying to have a one-on-one every single week. A lot of the time, we might just chat about random topics and things like that. But having that chance to be able to talk, at least, like, people will know, okay, I'm gonna talk to Dane this week, okay, now I need to ask about it. And sometimes, if it's something minor, you might not say, okay, I'll call, but if it's on the meeting, if you know every Wednesday at 2 p.m. you have a meeting, you're probably more likely to bring that up. So, those are a couple of things that help our team, at least in the new environment to make sure we stay connected.
Liz Shickles: Yeah. And it feels a little contrived, but I think as the employer we need to be purposeful in creating that space, whatever that looks like—a weekly meeting, a once-a-year gathering. I think about the nature of humans quite a lot, and that's part of it is interacting with each other in 3D.
I was thinking about another aspect of hiring, and that's seeing people come from other professions who would very much like to become actuaries one day. They're willing to put in the work, they've started taking exams. They just don't fit the mold of coming right out of school, already a couple of exams in and a relevant major and internship.
For non-actuaries wanting to enter the field: Translatable skills from other professions
Liz Shickles: How do each of you think about translatable skills and experience when it comes to considering a candidate who doesn't fit the mold?
Zora Law: Yeah, that's a very good question. I actually love to have people from different backgrounds, because they bring in different ideas and strengths that we may not have. So, you know, our normal attributes may be more nerdy, you know, doing a lot of exams, doing a lot of math work, but somebody who came from a different background, for example, being a teacher—they already know how to present, and they already know how to be organized, and those are very important skills that are needed in our job as well. Especially being a consultant, we have various projects going on, we need to keep up to date, we need to know the progress of different things going on, and being able to communicate with other teammates, your boss, and also your clients, they are all important skills that a teacher would have, so that worked perfectly, and especially if they already have the math background, being a math teacher, that just works out so well.
But on the other hand, not only teachers, we have other professions who comes in who can bring in a different aspect of, you know, the human touch or whether it's just understanding the client. So, if you work in, say, a field that used to be more service-related, you are able to understand clients' needs, and this is one of the things that we need in consulting as well. So, don't be afraid and try it out, and showcase what you can do, that you learn from different professions and bring it into our world as well.
Liz Shickles: Great. Dane, what do you think?
How the actuarial profession benefits from diversity
Dane Grand-Maison: Yeah, when I graduated, the first job I had, I remember my team was—all the people were from the same city, from the same university, the same language, everything was the same, and I came in and then I saw, at the beginning, I saw, okay, I might not fit in. But what I realized, even though I didn't have that experience, I had a different way to think about stuff. So, a lot of the people, obviously, if you've been doing the same thing and everybody has the same background, it makes total sense. Well, when you bring someone that has a different vision, it's the diversity that adds a lot of values into that. And this is basically just my background. I was coming from a different university, different province. So I was able to bring values there.
But when I was doing my MBA, that's the first time that I was interacting with a lot of non-actuaries. So they were, like, engineers, teachers, they were all the professions in there. And in a sense, in my mind, I thought, oh, actuaries are the best, we know all the calculations, we know all the stuff, we have all that training. But what I realized, when I sat with those people and did homework with them, I realized they think differently but add value to my thinking as well. Like, it kind of brings some new perspective.
So, Liz, when you mentioned about bringing non-actuaries in the profession, I think that's what I see. People can bring different perspectives, and that can enhance the whole profession by making people think differently and seeing the same problem but from a different way.
Liz Shickles: Definitely agree, and I think any time we have the chance to hire somebody in, it's a chance to ask ourselves the question, How can we complement the team who's currently in place today? Because that will inevitably make us different but better.
Zora Law: I agree.
How will a P&C actuary’s job be different in 20 years?
Liz Shickles: I think for my last question, I'm gonna make it pretty broad-brushed and just ask whether either of you might have a prediction about the future of the actuarial profession. What could this job look like 20 years from now, would you say?
Zora Law: Yeah, we make predictions, but this is a big one. So, I would say the role of actuaries, I think, will be much bigger than what we have right now. In the past we have been always thinking about insurance or consulting world, this is where we sit, but in the future, I think we are going to go a lot beyond that, because we have the skill set to help not only in the insurance world, or being in the predictive modeling, analytical world. But we are able to kind of think about business problems that we help to solve.
I'm gonna give you one example. So, car manufacturers, nowadays, apart from thinking about building cars and selling them as new cars, they're thinking about a subscription model. So, a subscription model would be, like, you're going to subscribe to it, and then you're able to kind of renew or get a new car every regular period that you will have.
And in the future, we think that not only about the car itself, but it'll be an embedded service. So, for example, insurance would be part of the subscription that people can buy and get the new car along the way. So, when you think about it this way, maybe car manufacturers would need insurance company actuaries to come in and help them out as well, because that would be part of their pricing.
And that is just one of the examples, and in the future, you'll probably see a lot more insurance products being embedded into different corporations and products, and we'll be working alongside with those people and trying to make it a better product for them. So those will be very exciting opportunities out there.
Liz Shickles: Yeah, those sound like pretty near-term opportunities, so I could see why something that different could be changing that quickly, and therefore projecting anything further into the future that much more difficult.
Dane, what do you think?
Dane Grand-Maison: It’s very hard to predict how things will happen in the future. So, when I was in university, there's no way I would think about self-driving car will be something. Obviously, it's not 100% live right now, but we can all see that self-driving cars is not a dream, or it's not something you'll see only in the movies, it's happening right now. But 20 years ago, I would have never predicted that, so it's kind of the same thing as well.
Actuaries should prepare to learn how to learn
Dane Grand-Maison: Now, I have no clue exactly how things will change, but one thing I can guarantee to you is that everything will change in the next 20 years. You cannot prepare for something specifically, but I think you need to prepare to learn how to learn. Because no matter what happens in every environment you will be, you will need to adapt and try to understand how things work.
So, don't try to focus on only updating your Excel spreadsheet, or, like, learning how to be the best coders. Try to understand what it means, and, like, try to understand, okay, I don't know that situation. It's a new environment. Try to go to your training as an actuary, and then see how you can apply it in the future.
AI will change how we do work, but how it's gonna change? I have no clue exactly. But I still have all the training that I have as an actuary to think about risk, things that can happen. We have frameworks, we have standards of practice, so there's a lot of tools that we have that can help shift the way we think, and the best way that we can do as actuaries, like, just to keep learning, help each other, and then adapt to the new world.
But I don't want to give you a super precise prediction, because I know for sure I will be wrong, and I don't want people listening to this podcast in 20 years and kind of come to me that my prediction was totally wrong.
Liz Shickles: Well, I think we're coming right back around to curiosity being the core skill for an actuary to have.Well, this has been wonderful. I want to thank you both, Dane Grand-Maison from Eckler and Zora Law from Milliman, for joining me here today. You can follow both of our firms on LinkedIn to learn more about the work that we do and about our great career opportunities.
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